Christianity & Conspiracism – Juicy Ecumenism
Here’s my interview with Professor Mike Austin of Eastern Kentucky University, co-editor of QAnon, Chaos and the Cross: Christians and Conspiracy Theories, Soundcloud audio, YouTube video and transcript below. I hope you will find this talk informative.
[embedded content]
Mark Tooley
Hello! This is Mark Tooley, president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy, here in Washington, DC., on a chilly early spring afternoon, with the pleasure of talking to Mike Austin, co-editor of a relatively recent book, Q-Anon and the Cross. I’m sorry, Mike. I’m already mangling the name of the book. Why don’t you hold it up for us?
Mike Austin
Yeah, you bet it’s Q-Anon, Chaos and the Cross: Christianity and Conspiracy Theories.
Mark Tooley
So, a very timely topic with a number of very insightful contributors. And, Mike, you teach at?
Mike Austin
Yeah. I teach philosophy at Eastern Kentucky University Public University, near Lexington.
Mark Tooley
And just out of curiosity. What is your religious tradition?
Mike Austin
Yeah, so it’s a mix. I grew up in the Roman Catholic tradition and sort of became an Evangelical without knowing it when I was a senior in high school. So I still think of myself as an Evangelical and kind of the classic theological sense of that term.
Mark Tooley
Someone told me they thought maybe you were theologically Wesleyan. Is that accurate?
Mike Austin
Yeah. It depends on the day. I’m part of a Presbyterian church. But yeah, I’m still sort of working through a lot of those questions. But yeah, I think, broadly speaking, I would be inline there in many ways.
Mark Tooley
The contributors to your book are all evangelical. Is that correct?
Mike Austin
No, there’s kind of a wide variety. So, there are definitely evangelical scholars. There are Roman Catholic, they’re Mainline. Yeah, so kind of a variety, but all from just some Christian tradition.
Mark Tooley
So, the influence of conspiracy theories and conspiracism among Christians, obviously, it’s become very strong in recent years. How do you explain it? And what specifically motivated you to put this book together?
Mike Austin
Yeah. So, let’s take the second question. First, the motivation was actually a friend of mine. He’d been approached by a publisher to write a single authored book about this, and he referred them to me. And I just thought, I’m not ready to write a whole book myself. Like I actually wanted to learn. And so, a great way to learn is to bring together a bunch of people who can bring their particular expertise. And so, the motivation. My co- editor, Greg Boch, he had done a lot of work already in this. And so we just talked about writing a book or editing, and we thought editing would be good in the sense that we’ve got Christian scholars from history, theology, Biblical studies, philosophy, and so bringing their own particular expertise to it. I think it works in a for what it is as a resource for people to kind of to think through. And it’s the kind of book you wouldn’t necessarily give to a family member or friend who’s maybe knee deep in a conspiracy theory.
It’s more for people who are, you know, who have a family member, a friend who just wants to learn and have concerns and wonder kind of the questions you just asked, why is it prevalent? What can be done? What is a conspiracy theory? So, yeah, that was kind of the motivation behind it, and then the prevalence, you know that’s a hard question. I think you know there’re some general trends in in the United States that are reflected, sometimes more, maybe more strongly. And within Christian traditions there’s a general distrust of science, and more broadly intellectual authorities. I saw a 2019 survey that said roughly 35% of Americans trust science, broadly speaking, and that was before Covid. So, I wouldn’t be surprised if it has fallen. So, I think there’s some of that distrust of institutions and of you know, people who are, I mean, yeah, people like that do work in the knowledge realm faculty and researchers. And so, it’s kind of an American thing, too, right? Just to sort of distrust those who are kind of institutional, with skepticism about knowledge, and those who, you know, are authorities or put themselves forward as authorities. I think there are a lot of other reasons that come in there. Psychological reasons, probably sometimes moral reasons, not in the sense of like people, are immoral, so they believe conspiracy theories, but like my own view, and I think, like a central part of Christian ethics is character and human flourishing. And those things are vital for fulfillment in life. And so, I think there’s a search for meaning that we’re all on. A conspiracy theory is an easy way to be a part of something larger than yourself. Being in the know kind of appeals to some of our lesser angels at times. Those are some of the things that jump to mind.
Mark Tooley
Now you would think, for Christians who ostensibly find their chief meaning in Jesus Christ, and who believe in divine sovereignty, would be the least susceptible to conspiracy theories. But perhaps they have become even more susceptible to conspiracy theories, maybe, than the general population. Am I exaggerating?
Mike Austin
Yeah, that’s a good question. There definitely is, I was looking at some statistics earlier today. Again, it does look like compared to other members of society. So, for example, 55% of white Evangelicals believe in some sense the activity of the Deep State that was working against the Trump Administration. This was the first administration. So, here’s another example. One of the QAnon conspiracy theories that Trump is secretly battling a group of pedophiles, you know, and Democrats in the media. Twenty seven percent of white Evangelicals believe that, 15% of white mainline Protestants, 11% of Hispanic Catholics and 7% of black Protestants. So those aren’t alarming. But I think they’re relatively more than other, you know, non-religious groups. And it doesn’t tend to be different between, say politically, someone who’s on the left or the right. It’s not so much whether or not you believe conspiracy theories. It’s which ones you believe is what’s interesting. And there is not really a differentiation in terms of, for example, for education or economic status. It doesn’t look like someone like me who’s more skeptical of a lot of these conspiracy theories. It’s easy to think well, people just aren’t educated, but that’s not true. It can be. I mean, there’s no difference there. So, something else is going on.
Mark Tooley
So, for white Evangelicals, obviously, they would see secular elites of the left as adversarial and at work to undermine Christian influence in society, so that would open them up to conspiracy theories, I suppose.
Mike Austin
Yeah, I think you can see that, I think in my own experience. In the late 1980s, and so, being an evangelical in college and working some in campus ministry after that. And there definitely was at that time and still there today, you know, there was in those circles like a skepticism about science, that sort of belief in evolution or naturalistic evolution, right? That there’s something fishy going on there, right? And so, even though that’s what the sort of scientific authorities would teach at a university, and believe, seeing that as conflicting with the Bible. And it’d be a mistrust like you said, of government, and especially the past even then, but probably more so right in the past 20 years of people using governmental and other kinds of power in certain ways, to maybe enforce what people would see as a non-Christian, or even views about human nature, about society, that are, they would think, is hostile to Christianity. So, I think there’s that kind of distrust, maybe some in some cases merited in some cases not kind of opens us up, maybe, to these kinds of theories, seeming more plausible.
Mark Tooley
You think perspectives rooted in conspiracism are intrinsically at odds with an orthodox Christian perspective?
Mike Austin
Yes, so I guess I would. At least those that are false. Right? So, that’s an important thing. And so there are conspiracies, right? There are conspiracies that happened. There were, you know, you think of in history, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in some sense, was part of conspiracy to assassinate or at least upend, Hitler’s rule. Watergate was an actual conspiracy. So I think we want to be careful. You know one of the things I think is important is humility on either side. So, for people who maybe are more prone to believe in a conspiracy theory, the humility of it is hard. We’re not in a position to know as much as we want to know often about some of these things. Even if a good case, a shiny case, can be made online, you know, by someone who is persuasive. And then there’s the humility of maybe those of us who are skeptical to not just have disdain for or discount people’s belief in them as just. Well, if you believe any conspiracy theory, then you’re just not being reasonable because there are cases where they’re true. What I think is important, and from kind of the quote that you mentioned is, yeah, the tendency to go to conspiracy first. Just given that the vast majority of these are false, or at least haven’t been demonstrated to be true, especially these days, where they proliferate online and on social media.
You know Christians, regardless of what tradition we’re in, are supposed to be people committed to the truth. And ultimately that truth is a person, Jesus Christ. But more broadly than that just, we’re supposed to be people of the truth. And if we are susceptible to easy deception that can happen in these kinds of things. And really a lot of conspiracy theories for Christians, it ends up being gossip and slander, claims about people that are false, or at least unsubstantiated. And so, in those ways, right it undercuts things we should be committed to in our daily lives.
Mark Tooley
So can there be some distinction between the plots that you described. Watergate, the plot to overthrow Hitler, a certain, a circumscribed number of people across a certain amount of time that’s documented, and we know the names of the people involved. But that more extravagant conspiracy theories seem to involve, or would have to entail, often thousands of people across many, many years, perhaps decades and generations, and assume that none of these people have ever broken their silence, and somehow have supernaturally maintained the conspiracy that can’t really be effectively uncovered. You just have to believe in it by faith. So, would you make that kind of distinction?
Mike Austin
Yeah, I think that’s important, and one of I don’t know if it’s in his chapter or just conversation. But Du Johnson, one of the contributors to the book, he’s’s a Biblical scholar now, but he was involved in in the armed forces, and I think in military intelligence. And so one of the reasons he gives for disbelief in a lot of these kind of broad theories like you talk about is he just can’t imagine that many people in the government doing something that’s coordinated and keeping it secret for that long. And that makes sense right? So, I think, that is a key difference, right? I mean, there have been always looking up, you know, you think of the African National Congress as another actual conspiracy to end the Apartheid regime.
And really, and you know, one interesting thing. Well, no, I guess I won’t say that that doesn’t really fit. But so yeah, I think that’s important. It’s one thing to identify a group of people, most actual conspiracies that exist, they tend to be a relatively smaller group of people. As you mentioned. So, QAnon, to believe a lot of these theories that are put forward, you’ve got to believe like you said hundreds or thousands of people working in concert, keeping something secret. And yeah, it’s that that strange credulity, absent, publicly verifiable evidence that it’s going on.
Mark Tooley
When I think of the conspiracy, perspective often comes to mind David Ray Griffin, if you remember him, who headed the Center for Process Studies out in California, and was a leading proponent of 9/11 conspiracy theories, that the Pentagon and the World Trade Center were government orchestrated, controlled demolition, which obviously would have entailed thousands of thousands of people in federal and local government. And it very much was in sync with Process Theology, which thinks that there is really no final judgment. There’s a constant god at work, and constant forces of evil eternally at odds with each other, so the evil can just continue indefinitely, which, to my mind, is definitely at odds with a more orthodox Christian perspective. So often I have likened the conspiracy perspective to Process Theology, but others have pushed back on that. But what are your thoughts?
Mike Austin
Yeah, that’s interesting. I mean, yeah, I would agree, just for me, that’s outside of orthodoxy. And it doesn’t. I mean, it seems to kind of strain this conception of God that I think we’ve has been understood and developed, from the Scriptures and a couple thousand years of theology across traditions. What’s the connection there that you see, maybe between Process Theology and conspiracies?
Mark Tooley
As I understand Process Theology, God is not supreme. He’s a process constantly unfolding. And so, from the Process Theology perspective, for example, there’s no final judgment. Evil is never defeated. Evil is not finite, or, under God’s jurisdiction, evil just constantly reinvents itself, and moves forward. From that perspective you can have these conspiracies that last for decades. David Ray Griffin, for example, believed that Pearl Harbor was a conspiracy by the FDR Administration, and would connect that to the events of 9/11. across 80 years. So, it really takes a great and deep faith to tie everything together in a neat package.
Mike Austin
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I can see that connection. Maybe it gives more power, in a certain sense, to evil, and manifests and sustains itself over long periods of time.
Mark Tooley
And I think Christians should agree that even evil people are finite and make mistakes and don’t have it all together and spiritually we can have confidence that their plans will be stymied in the end. They don’t just go on forever.
Mike Austin
Right well, and even in the worst of us, right, there’s still that image bearer of God. So yeah, thankfully.
Mark Tooley
Right, even the evil are kept back by divine grace.
Mike Austin
That’s right. Yeah.
Mark Tooley
So, what advice or guidance do you have for Christians who are struggling with their own viewpoints on conspiracy theories, or have family members and close friends who are very enmeshed in conspiracy theories? What counsel do you offer as they contend with those challenges?
Mike Austin
Yeah, it’s so difficult, I think. And I think the question you asked is the right one. We shouldn’t be concerned with trying to have, you know, debates online with people who are proponents of conspiracy theories that we don’t know or barely know. There’re kind of two tracks, one within our religious communities, our churches. And this I mean, this is kind of central to a lot of the issues that we face these days is a refocus on whether depending on your tradition, whether it’s discipleship or spiritual formation, character, growth, all those sorts of things both intellectual and moral, on becoming more Christ-like, right? That’s the chief task of the Christian. So, I think a lot of that formation in the long run is the best antidote to false conspiracy theories.
Relationally, I would be much more open and willing to spend the time it would take with, you know, a friend or family member, or the person sitting next to me in the church to start engaging these things. And so, if you’re going to do that, try to keep the conversation focused. Maybe just say tell me, give me one thing, one article, one video that you find really the persuasive. Your family member friend who’s into the theory, and then you watch it. You read it, you get together and discuss it. You ask questions, and then maybe the deal is, you’ll give them one thing to read or think about, either criticizing that or kind of response or general concerns about conspiracy theory. So, I think those longer-term slow discussions grounded in friendship and love. Now, there may be times where you just can’t do that. And some people just can’t agree on the foundational rules of just a good discussion and dialogue, then it’s not going to be helpful. And in those cases, you know, it’s more of a matter for prayer, just loving them consistently. And there may be times when you just say let’s just not talk about this. Let’s, you know, do something else. Go fishing together or have coffee, and, you know, just cultivate the friendship and the relationship. But I think, yeah, I guess I still have faith kind of what we just talked about, that the image of God is in us. And as Isaiah says, come, let us reason together, and so, if we can do that from a humble and loving posture, I think over time you can see progress, and you know, good. I have a friend who from church, who was kind of oh, during Covid went down into some of this QAnon and into rabbit holes, and he attributes just the love and patience of his wife for helping him get out. I mean, some of it was discussions, I think, about actual issues, but it was more about that faithful, loving presence. So, I think those things matter.
Mark Tooley
In terms of how conspiracy theories became more popular. Obviously, the Internet played a major role in that, and the pandemic amplified with people staying at home, lots of down time online, looking for explanations, going down these endless rabbit holes. Has there been some recovery since 2020?
Mike Austin
That’s a good question. I haven’t seen recent data. like, I know that the American Enterprise Institute has some research on this. Lifeway did some. So that would be a good question of whether it’s gone down. I think I would say, generally speaking, without numbers, like, you know, when we did this book, we thought, well, maybe in a few years there won’t be a need for it. But it seems like these things are. Still. They’re persisting.
I think during the run up to the election there was still discussion of conspiracy theories. You see, people talking about January 6, you know, as an FBI, or a government orchestrated, all those kinds of things. So, I think you still see the theories floated a lot. That’s just a seems to be a human nature thing in terms of the percentages that would be interesting. My guess would be it’s gone down a little bit, but not a lot.
Mark Tooley
No, I think you’re as I am, you’re old enough to remember when Dispensationalism was very popular among Evangelicals, with a strong focus on the end times and trying to connect current events with the Apocalypse, and that perspective seemed to be conducive to conspiracy theories for many people. And yet now, as Dispensationalism has largely faded, conspiracy theories, in some sense, have almost replaced the Dispensationalist perspective, which at least was striving to understand Scripture and striving to focus on Christ, whereas the conspiracy theories seem to take people in very different places.
Mike Austin
Yeah. And that’s what’s interesting and in many ways tragic about them. And one of the chapters discuss how the language of conspiracy theories, of QAnon, mirrors a lot of Christian language. So, it’s like these grand battles of good versus evil, spiritual warfare. Some of that language borrows some of the concepts and language that would be familiar to many Christians, even Evangelicals, who maybe were, you know, like thinking about the end times and Dispensationalism. So, it still captures some of those ideas and just recasts them in this other sort of grand battle. Yeah, I think that’s interesting. You know, the Left Behind Series, those kinds of things that were so prominent and shaped people’s views, are not really grounded in necessarily Scripture. But yeah, when you think that there’s going to be an Antichrist and the world, you know, it’s going to be some, you know. I remember when people said it was the Pope, or it was Gorbachev or Obama, I mean, you know, there’s always somebody to take that mantle in people’s imaginations. Yeah.
Mark Tooley
Well. The conspiracy theories give people a sense of drama and excitement in their lives that is lacking, and ideally the Gospel itself should provide that drama. But people look elsewhere.
Mike Austin
Yeah, that’s something. The things that I care most about in my sort of writing and research and speaking are related to character, development, spiritual formation. So I think about if you want drama and meaning, you know, devote your life to pursuing a deeper union with God in Christ, deeper connections with people in your church community, your family, your friends, and then trying to become a person of love, courage, humility, patience, I mean there’s plenty to do. And I think especially think of younger men in our society and in our churches asking me about Jordan Peterson, and about Joe Rogan, and kind of the sources they go to. I can’t remember the guy’s name. He was like a former navy seal, basically says, you know, do hard things to challenge yourself. And so, I think there’s something in us that wants that challenge. And I think you know Christian faith gives us that. It just looks very different. And I think pursuing meaning in these other ways is because we’re not for whatever reason, sometimes that message isn’t getting through, or we’re not just committing ourselves to, as you mentioned, to the gospel and Christian growth and those kinds of things. So, my hope is that, yeah, we could find the depth in our faith that where these things that maybe lead us to believe conspiracy theories, or you know, there’re all such other ways we can go wrong apart from conspiracy theories, depending on politics, or entertainment, or just whatever it is that there’s this core part of who we are, that we’re never going to be satisfied in deeper way apart from Christ. Yeah, it’s concerning.
Mark Tooley
Many pastors have struggled to deal with the conspiracy perspective of their congregations. Have you heard many stories, or have pastors reported back to you that your book has been helpful to them?
Mike Austin
Yeah, I’ve had some like, use it and discuss it, some trying to think of specific cases. I mean, there was, you know, the survey, I think this was before the book was published, from Lifeway saying that that roughly 50% of Protestant pastors had regularly heard, or at least members of their congregation refer to conspiracy theories as an explanation of current events. So, they’re dealing with it.
I think I get more of the negative coverage about someone who is a family member. Even people will leave a church if the pastor doesn’t kind of give voice to their conspiracy theory that they, because they feel it so deeply right. They have this deep subjective conviction that this is true. And there’s this good and evil stuff going on. So, of course, as Christians, we should care about those things. So, I think it’s really difficult obviously to be a pastor generally, but be a pastor or a priest, and dealing with that stuff with the political, all the different polarizations. This is just one manifestation of it.
Mark Tooley
And do you think many pastors themselves have fallen for conspiracy theories? Are there any surveys, or do you have anecdotal information?
Mike Austin
Yeah, I mean, you can see I have anecdotal information. That’s the kind of thing that you get when you discuss these things or write a book or give a talk. You know there definitely are pastors who make use of this. And those videos end up popping up on my feed or get sent to me. I think I mentioned this guy in the book. He’s in Tennessee. But he was just constantly espousing QAnon theories, and you’ll see pastors do that here and there.
Obviously, pastors have to shepherd, to care for people, to nurture them in their pursuit of the truth and of their faith. And yeah, really, when a whole loca church heads in that direction, that undermines the core mission of loving God, loving your neighbors as yourself, furthering the Gospel by serving the community. And that’s what I think is difficult. Is this the conspiracy theory that has that power to become an obsession? How do you talk to a Christian who wants to talk more about their conspiracy theory that they believe in more than Christ or the Gospel, or you know the kingdom of God? So, it can become yet another kind of idolatry almost. But it doesn’t seem that way, because it’s couched in spiritual language good versus evil.
But if my heart and mind are more consumed with a conspiracy theory than these other things of the kingdom, and that’s another problem as well. And so if a pastor is fostering that, yeah, that’s really bad.
Mark Tooley
Contributors to your book include Evangelicals and Catholics? Is there a unique Catholic perspective on this topic?
Mike Austin
That’s a good question. I don’t think at least not in this. In the book. I think, historically there are people who have conspiracy theories about Catholics. Right? And then, historically, the Christian Church has had both Catholics and Protestants engaged in conspiratorial thinking about like the Jew like the Jewish people, for example.
But I wouldn’t say that I can think of that as a uniquely Catholic predisposition. Maybe the Catholic approach can bring in, not just Scripture, but of course, the Church tradition as well. And church thinkers in the past have counteracted it in ways that especially American evangelical Protestants don’t because they tend to be less tradition oriented. They don’t have as much of a wealth of theological tradition, even if’s there. It’s kind of a bias of the contemporary, so to speak.
Mark Tooley
And to what extent does conspiracism overlap with antisemitism?
Mike Austin
Yeah. So is mentioned some in the text. There’s a rise in antisemitism in terms of both online chatter and kind of becoming more visible in our nation the past few years. I’ve recently discussed or been having a discussion with some Jewish thinkers and scholars about this, who track this kind of thing.
So, there’ve been antisemitism and conspiracism. And Jews as a group of people have been the target of that kind of thinking right? As in Nazi Germany, people say today, right, that the Jews are controlling the media or the financial sector, or all these different things. So yeah, that’s again, not so publicly available as evidence. But for whatever reason, definitely a phenomenon that occurs.
Mark Tooley
And distinctly how would you explain why conspiracism often overlaps with antisemitism? Is it the centrality of the Jews in the salvation story that elevates their importance?
Mike Austin
Yeah, I mean, that’s a good question. I don’t know. I wonder.
You know, historically, that could be part of it. And when people sort of say things like the Jews killed Jesus, right? They’re the ones that crucified Jesus. So, you’ve got that historical sort of antisemitism, and then it can bleed over into. I mean, if you’re antisemitic and you want for whatever reason, you have this a negative view of the Jewish people that they’re evil or that they’re up to something. It’s it becomes fertile ground to start growing conspiracy theories that fit into that view.
So yeah, I think it is just the historical oppression but also sort of the opposition that the Jewish people have faced for centuries. And so, it makes them a prime target for some people to develop these kinds of theories.
Mark Tooley
If you were doing this book now, as opposed to two or three years ago, what would you add? What did you overlook that’s still very relevant? Or maybe it’s become relevant even since several years ago?
Mike Austin
Yeah, that’s a good question. We were pretty open and just let contributors do whatever they wanted. I think I would try to add more specific cases. So, like, 9/11, have people examine particular conspiracy theories that people have put forth, or the conspiracies about January 6, 2021, right? Some of those things. One thing that could be helpful is to give examples of someone analyzing particular conspiracy theories and then uncovering the flaws and the falsehoods. And there might be some ways, some lessons, to draw from that like a framework that you could apply to others in the future. There’s some of that in the book, but I think it would be good to have more of that. So, it would give people a model for how to evaluate these things. We do some of that in the book, and we give some models of how to have a conversation with somebody whose knee deep in these things, which is helpful. But I think that’s what jumps to mind to me.
Mark Tooley
Mike Austin, co-editor of QAnon, Chaos and the Cross: Christianity and Conspiracy Theories, thank you very much for an insightful conversation, and if you would hold your book up one more time.
Mike Austin
You bet. Get it right here.
Mark Tooley
And I commend that to our listeners. Thank you again, Mike.
Mike Austin
Thank you.
